An Unlikely Conversation
Of this I am convinced. We serve a God full of surprises. I am not talking about the nasty surprises that you wish you could be spared. I talk about those unexpected influxes of grace that leaves you with a sense of awe, wonder and gratitude. Our lives are full of them although I think we often miss them.
Today was such a day, one with an unexpected surprise. So I sold a car. The guy interested ironically came all the way from Fort McMurray where I used to live. We really hit it off! The negotiating process, the arrangement and eventual meeting had this aura of trust, opens and honesty about it.
On hearing I was a pastor the man ask a very deep question: “As a man of faith, what is your take on the human condition of today?” A person asking this obviously lives life at a depth below surface level. I gave the best answer I could upon which he just nodded thoughtfully. We closed the deal. It was time to say good bye. I said it was really pleasant to do business with me and to talk with me. There was this pregnant moment hanging in the air after he said this. Next I hear myself saying the following: “I noticed that your middle name is Ishmael. You know, about two Sundays ago, I preached a sermon on Ishmael. I know you are probably Muslim but for some reason I want to email you this sermon and hear your comments on it.” His face lid up. “I would love that!”, he said. Before I got home, I got a text with his email address. I sent the email.
The reply came fairly quickly and was much more thorough than I had expected. I am about to share it with you as well as my response as I think that even though we disagreed it was a tremendously respectful and honest conversation. Maybe it could be of help in similar conversations with people of other faiths you are having. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts on it.
Shafiee | 2:20 PM (6 hours ago) | ||
to me |
Hi Gabriel,
Thanks for sharing the Sermon, interesting indeed.
I wanted to share a few words in regards to it. Though there is wisdom and truth in the writing, I have come to underestand the matter differently. You see, there are a few issue at play here:
– Prophets are God’s chosen ones, and they are the closest to perfection and closest to God, the creator of all things. Some of the so called “mistakes” are our own interpretation of the matter. Sometimes I have seen some christians that accuse of such and such Prophets of comitting major sins! sometimes to even todays standards or someone like me (a sinful being) would not even commit such a sin. Let alone the one that God has chosen (with all His everlasting wisdom and knowledge) to convey His message to humankind. Do humans commit sins, yes, is God forgiving and loving, yes of course. But I beleive in seeing Ibraham as a “lousy father” can be problematic. God is perfect, those closest to Him are the closest to perfection. These Prophets were in complete obedience of God, complete servitude to God, though the prophets do have ranks, Ibraham was one of the greatest. That being said, why did God request of Ibrahim to sacrifice Ishmael, or to abandon Hagar and Ishmael in the dry deserts…That requires a very philosophical and deep discussion on its own. Yes at face value it looks that based on jealously of Sarah, Ibrahim was forced to committ such an act towards Hagar and Ishmael, but there is no doubt that it was the will of God that made both Ibrahim, Hagar and Ishmael submissive to this act. Prophethood is such a high status, and their connection with God is on a whole different level, to a point that we cant simply comprehend their dealings with their Lord. Why did God ask Ibrahim, with his immence love for his son, to sactifice Him. Is God not just? Is God not caring? Of course He is, but this was rather a great test, a test that would eventually elevate Ibrahim to greater ranks (after passing it). You see it goes back to our purpose of creation, we have been created as a being above angels posessing both desire, freedom and intelect so that we may be the creation that is to be the closest to the perect creator, God. In a manner that we would become a mirror image of God, of course in our own limited being. And Jesus (AS) was exactly that, we Muslims call him he Soul of God, the one resembling God the closest in attributes (love, kindness, justice, might etc). And as for this earth, this limited dimensionful earth, is a place of test. It is the grounds were we have fell to the lowest of rhelms, where all the curtains to the divine has been shut to us, where we are to face challenges and tests in order to prove our beleive in God. And for someone so limited like me, it could be simple test, like not worshiping money, being less materialistic, or being kinder to my family etc, and for the ranks for those like of Ibrahim, it would be absolute submission to a point that God will request of Ibrahim to kill His own son. And of course that event did not happen as it was merely a test, and God is more kind. The heart has been created to only allow God to enter, and nothing else. All other love would iminate from the love of God. Our love for our spouse, children etc. That may be just a simple glimpse into the events that occured to Ibrahim. Now the story of why they were abandoned, Sarah was also a fair woman and a dear wife of Ibrahim. Though jealously did overtake her, she made such request to Ibrahim and God did accept to abandon Ishmael and Hagar in the plains of Mecca (made the trip from Palestine to Mecca). Ibrahim would not act against the will of God, as someone that is tied to revelation and the metaphysical rhelm. And there are of course unlimited wisdom behind why God would allow this. One of them could be that these were holy lands, where a nation were to be raised, or that such place, eventhough middle of the desert and deprived of nature and fertile land, was a holy place of worship. That being said, first and foremost, Ibrahim, then Hagar and Ishmael were all in obedience to this will of God when they did realize that God has allowed Ibrahim to accept the request of Sarah. This is only from the limited knowledge of what we have of the events that took place.
Fatherhood is a position that God has entrusted a few with in this temporary adobe. After all, all status and position is apointed by God, and we are just entrusted with it. As you know we dont own our children, or they are not ours, they are children of God (metaphorically, since God is beyong imagination or comprehension, not limited to physical space or dimensions of any sort, we are the creation and He is the creator), but for a short term God has destined these children to be raised in the hands of His select creation for development. And the relationship is there for fathers to realize our connection with God (relationship of creator to creation). I mean after all, the baby is to some extent from you, your DNA and etc. Of all people, the closest to God are to be the best to their children, the best to their wife, the best to their societies, and the best to themselves. And this is regardless of time and age, they would be much more advanced beyond us even at this stage or centrury.
Though there are many lessons we need to take on fatherhood, those lessons can be taught via other means. I beleive the masses aren’t to benefit from such a perception as a biblical story about the dealings of Ibrahim with his son. Especially one that is supposed to resemble the best Gods kindness and care. Such mistakes are for lowly ones like myself. The lesson here is acts of complete obedience to the God of the universe.
Let there be also another distinction that, these prophets were appointed by God to lead humankind to the straight path and to establish God’s rule on earth. To allow people to embody the truth and live to their purpose. To stop the worship of false idols. Afterall, God has put us on this earth, and these are the Prophets that carried His message to guide humankind. Guide to relay the information and establish God’s plan for humankind (so they were not only mere preachers, but were to be political beings that opposed the tyrants of their time). Just as religeon should and does offer a path in regards to demolishing descrimination, poverty and injustice. These were the individuals best fit and appointed by God to develop. So all these “isms” we see today are all false notions of reality and truth. They are man made rules and guidelines since humankind has been detached from the source (God) and disassociated themselves with religeon and the truth. They think religeon is there to feel spiritual and feel good about themselves. Why did they so brutally behave with Christ? Was he just a spiritual figure that guided people to just pray and be a good person? No, he opposed the tyrants or the Pharoh of his time, and hence they had such animosity to him. so all these isms of socialism, capitalism and communism are all man made and is raised from a place where we have forgotten God and limited religeon.
As for religons like Christianity, Islam etc. Most of what we call Ibrahimic religeons. Myself as a shia muslim, beleive that there is an abundance of truth in the Christianity faith, through there are many denominations these days, it contains the truth and is a religeon of God as send upon the people by Christ. But a few that I have always opposed are the thought of trinity (that is both difficult to comprehend even by the christians themselve – where it doesnt offer unity in power). Afterall, how can God take someone as a son, or be in 3 parts. and If the reason is because Jesus was fatherless, then Adam and Eve were both fatherless and motherless. God can create and destine things as He wishes and He can make man and put life into Clay. In creation nothing comes close to the might and existence of God, the almighty, and the status of prophets are so great because they are the most connected with this source. With that being said, I am a firm beleiver of the second coming and the return of Christ. I mean what is that even afterall, it comes in a world filled with injustice and oppression, where God says, Ok, you have tried all sorts of form of governance and societal rule (isms), and have failed at all in addressing the problems of the world. That is when God will send a Holy man to rule (Christ) before and establish such rule (as it was always destined for us by God from the beginning, but for many reasons it was not successful). That is the power of a person that is the closest to God, and God’s knowledge.
Further sadness to todays world is individualism, relativism and peoples lack of drive to seek the truth. My truth is relative and what I beleive is the truth, you beleive what you want. After all can there be 2 truths? or that we feel we are the God of ourselves and we truly worship anything and anyone other than God. our own desires, false notions of success and power etc. Unfortunately this false sense of truth is seen amongst many muslims as well, as you see certain groups are taking the word of God and killing innocents in the west and east. But these religeons contain truth, unfortunately not many that actually underestand, grasp and embody that trugh. They have either misunderstood the truth or fail to embody it.
Anyhow, I do appreciate both the vehicle and the article as there were lots I could take out from it. I may have gone on a bit of a rant, but it did relate to our discussion about modern age. I hope that you have other articles in the future for a read.
Keep me in your prayers,
All the best,
Mohammad Shafiee
My response:
Shafiee,
I did not expect a reply so soon and so thoroughly. Your response delights me, not because I agree with everything you say but because it is so honest. It gives me insight into how someone coming from a different background and faith tradition thinks and that is ever so necessary in our time-that we listen to different perspectives even those we might disagree with. I will be equally honest in my explanations and response in this letter, hoping that you will find it as stimulating and interesting as I have found yours.
On your first paragraph. From the little knowledge I have of Islam, I know that you have a very high reverence for prophets. With this in mind, I can imagine how disturbing it must have been to you that I point out possible mistakes of Abraham, that you consider a prophet, near perfection and infallible. I think you make a valid point in the sense that we should be careful to judge and dismiss actions of biblical figures by applying our modern day notions of what for example, a good father should and should not do. I tried not to dwell on the fact that Abraham did something we wouldn’t consider a just action and focused on the fact that God saw Ishmael’s distress and attended to him. “Abraham-bashing” surely wasn’t my intent.
That being said, I must point out that in the Christian tradition we do have a slightly different view of prophets. We generally don’t see them as infallible, perfect human beings but rather as imperfect vessels of a very timely and important message God gave for his people, one that was crucial to their survival as it was delivered and one that is still relevant to our flourishing today. We do honor prophets but differently than you do. We emphasize and honor the fact that God used them, spoke through them, broken and imperfect as they may have been-to convey a godly message to other broken people. The Bible itself points out that Abraham had sins and did not always obey God, like when he lied about Sarah being his sister. We also do not really think of him as a prophet but as a “Father of the Faith”. I speak under correction but I don’t think the Bible calls him a prophet directly (this is however less of a concern as I can relate to how Abraham can be seen as a prophet). Your input has sparked a lot of thoughts on prophets and prophecy in my mind. I wonder how wise it is to see a Prophet as a position, a status attained as opposed to a function, fulfilling the function of conveying a message of God at a crucial time.Maybe prophecy is both a position and a function but keep in mind that many of the greatest prophets were only recognized as such after their lifetimes or after what the foretold came to pass. Prophesy is in my mind a function before it is a position and also primarily a function before it is a position, a verb more than it is a noun. Putting the emphasis on it being a function, opens the possibility that even guys like you and me could prophesy, be carriers of timely messages from God to people. It also takes our gaze away from the vessels God used and puts it on God who has this amazing ability to use fallible human beings in His work.
On your second and third paragraphs about fatherhood. I agree with much what you are saying. Yes, the Bible and other sacred texts are not a “How to be a great dad” handbook first and foremost. It is a book where God reveals Himself as our good and real father and yet, because we are the beings created in His image (or as you put it above angels) we can learn much about how to be better fathers from the very fact that God shows us how He is a good father. Also, the pain of fatherlessness is so prevalent that I feel it is a wonderful comforting message to hear that God tends to the FAtherless and is a father to the fatherless.
On the fourth paragraph. I have already shared about my views on prophesy, so enough on that. Human systems are like individuals. They do display the fallenness of mankind in their shortcomings and yet they also reflect the fact that we are made in God’s image and are capable of doing good things. Take for instance capitalism. The freedom it stands for is a good and godly principle. How it tends equate this freedom with the freedom to follow any desire you have however sinful or bad to others it might be is problematic. So I think it is not as simplistic as you put it. We can not wipe all your “isms” off the table as ungodly and in practice nobody does that (our transaction today for instance was done within a capitalist economic system). We can however test how we participate in these systems by asking ourselves if our transactions, what we buy and sell and how we do that honors things that are important to God. For instance, is the price we ask fair? Do we really need to buy that sports car or is it simply to impress our neighbour etc. By doing this we bring reform and sometimes even revolution to systems that are unjust and ungodly. I love your perspective on Jesus and how he clashed with the politics of His time because he stood up for the poor and for what is just. MAny Christians miss that and spiritualize Jesus in this regard too much, leading them to blindly accept the economic and other systems they live in too uncritically. The very fact that Jesus incarnated, became flesh and entered human existence shows that we shouldn’t make faith just an otherworldly spiritual affair but a spiritual endeavor deeply concerned with concrete realities and issues of justice, equality etc in the world we live.
On your paragraph about the trinity. I am well aware that the doctrine of the trinity is one of the greatest obstacles in our faith for a muslim. For me it is best to be embraced as a mystery. THree persons, yet one being and Jesus as the “only begotten Son” of the Father. In contemplating the trinity again I think the distinction between function and form is important. God fathers and he is therefore the father, whilst Jesus acts as a Son in this relationship. God is off course way more than what we understand under the concepts of Father and Son but He chose to reveal Himself, make the magnitude of his being accessible by revealing himself with concepts we can relate to. What you believe about Jesus and his second coming is extraordinary to me. I didn’t realize what high a regard mulims have for Jesus (or ISA like you call him). I think few christians do. I will share with you a similiar realization I had when I once substitute taught at the muslim school in Fort Mcmurray. To this day I regard my moment with those children and what happened there as one of the most holy moments in my life!
If I am not mistaken, modern day Iran is part of or closeby the places we read about in the Old Testament. Having this conversation with you feels like traveling to those places and learning a lot from a “local” with much wisdom and a generosity that welcomes me and allows me to engage. It is very special to me and I hope we can continue our conversation. No pressure though. You are free to respond or not to as you feel comfortable. I share with you the passion to be a lifelong seeker of truth. We have much to teach each other.
In Christ
Gabriel
How could I have done better? What do you think of this conversation?
Gabriel J Snyman
July 2nd 2020